超越世界的衰落： 戴卓群、张小涛对话

地点：北京白盒子艺术馆
时间：2011年7月12日

戴卓群：《萨迦》项目的起因是什么，从什么时候开始？
Dai Zhuoqun: How and when did the Sakya project begin?

张小涛：起因是我2007年刚进藏考察了很多寺庙，当时我正好在做和藏传佛教相关的一个动画《夜》，回来以后，发现有很多东西可以继续挖掘，2007年底我在北大做《重生》那个项目与北大文博学院的考古学家合作，2008年的作品《迷雾》讨论的是现代性、物质主义浪潮，个人经验、公共经验、心灵史和思想史的矛盾相遇。当时巫鸿先生问我接下来还要做什么？我说可能是《萨迦》，我想去讨论宗教的世俗化问题，信仰与物质社会的悖论。
Zhang Xiaotao: It all started in 2007, when I visited many temples in Tibet. I was working on an animated film, Night, about Tibetan Buddhism. When I came back, I realized that a lot of stuff warranted further exploration. In late 2007 I did the Rebirth project at Peking University, where I worked together with archaeologists from the PKU School of Archaeology and Museology. My 2008 work Mist discussed the contradictory encounters of the waves of modernism and materialism, personal experience, public experience, the history of the soul and the history of ideas. At the time, Mr. Wu Hung asked me what I was going to do next. I said I might do something on Sakya, that I wanted to explore the issue of the secularization of religion, and the paradox between faith and material society.

戴卓群：《迷雾》把你当时思考的东西表达得很是淋漓尽致。
Dai: Mist expressed your thinking at the time quite clearly and vividly.

张小涛：我就想下一步该怎么办？2009年我想开始做《萨迦》，后来我先做了一个关于地震的《痕》，这个片子做完以后又有一个周期，因为我一直在做前期的收集素材、编剧本、整理文献和做技术上的更新与突破，我老是觉得火候没到，怀疑很多。
Zhang: I was wondering what to do next. I began the Sakya project in 2009, but I first did Scar, about earthquakes, and that took a lot of time, because I had to collect material, write the script, organize the documents and make some technical breakthroughs. I always felt it wasn’t quite right, and was full of doubts.

戴卓群：实际上是你2007年去萨迦寺的时候，留下了一个伏笔。
Dai: Your 2007 trip to the Sakya Monastery foreshadowed these later events.

张小涛：我当时考察了20几个寺庙，带摄影师和录像走了一个月，当时还是消化不了，回来就特别的有兴趣去读藏学和佛教一些书，那时候拍回来的素材今天一直还在用。我从小就有一种宗教情怀，这种虔诚一直影响到我对艺术的态度，尽管神圣世界已经破碎不堪。去年11月份我们剧组一行10人正式进藏（动画、录音师、摄影师、录像，考古学家和我、两个司机），我们再次从拉萨出发到桑耶寺和萨迦寺拍摄了十来天，收获很大。这次是冬季进藏，高原反应很强烈，工作的难度也很大，遇到很多的困难，但是我们都挺过来了。为什么从2010年才开始《萨迦》的项目，因为金融危机，这段时间让我有了更充分的思考、酝酿、发酵。去年从西藏回来，本来还想把动画电影和纪录片混在一起，后来发现不好融合，动画是动画，电影是电影，到现在，已经清楚起来了，就像片子前几分钟，它让你看得云山雾海，但是片子看完，清晰了。现在我还是处于一种未知和不确定的状态中，片子做到最后一分钟，都会还有错误，哪怕展出了都还在修改和调整，这是我以往的经验，现在正在做后期的剪辑、合成，正是最痛苦的时候……
Zhang: I investigated over twenty temples at that time. I took a cameraman and a videographer out there for a month. It was too much to digest all at once, and when I got home, I grew very interested in reading up on Tibetology. I’m still using footage from that trip today. I’ve always had religious sentiments since I was young, and my devotion has influenced by attitude towards art, even though the sacred world has been smashed to pieces. Last November our film crew of ten people entered into Tibet (including an animator, a recordist, a photographer, a videographer, an archaeologist, myself and two drivers), and once again travelled from Lhasa to the Samye and Sakya Monasteries, filming for about ten days. We gained a lot from that trip. This time we went to Tibet in the winter. We suffered from the altitude, and the work was very difficult. We ran into a lot of problems, but we carried through. When I came back from Tibet last year, I had originally wanted to combine an animated film with a documentary, but I discovered that the two mediums are difficult to fuse. Animation is animation, film is film. Now, it is very clear. Perhaps when you watch the first few minutes it seems confusing, but by the end, everything is clear. I am still in a state of the unknown and the uncertain. Right up to the last minute of the film there will be mistakes, and I may even still be fixing them by the time it is first exhibited. That has been my experience. I’m working on the postproduction right now, the hardest part…

戴卓群：就像孕妇临产的状态。
Dai: It’s like being in labor just before giving birth.

张小涛：真的不知道下一步会怎么样，早产？顺产？难产？忐忑不安。好比运动员马上上场比赛了，那种心情又激动、又焦虑、又有点喜悦。
Zhang: I really don’t know what will happen next. Will it be a premature birth? A smooth one? A difficult one? I’m quite nervous. It’s like an athlete just before a game, that feeling of excitement, anxiety and joy.

戴卓群：因为你之前《迷雾》里投入了大量的精力，去做动画，新媒体的东西，那你怎么处理原来绘画与现在动画的关系？
Dai: With Mist you expended a lot of effort to make animation and new media work. How do you handle the relationship between your painting and your animation?

张小涛：我现在60%的时间放在画画上，40%精力在做动画，绘画带给我基本的图像分析方法。2006年我写“绘画的抗体”讨论绘画的死亡，死亡的是陈旧的绘画观念，绘画边界的拓展，让绘画或得了重生。从绘画走向动画、电影，提供了一种全新的美学和视觉经验。怎么去分析问题？怎么去解决问题？围绕一个课题去展开？这些和绘画都是相似的，2005年底我转向动画方面的实验，当时也不知道是为什么，只是凭直觉预感到这个领域里又会有新的视觉经验、技术、美学的产生。
Zhang: I spend about 60% of my time painting, and 40% of my effort on animation. Painting gives me a basic method for analyzing images. In 2006 I wrote The Painting Antibody about the death of painting. What had died was the old conception of painting. The expansion of the boundaries of painting gave new life to painting. The shift from painting to animation and film has provided an entirely new aesthetic and visual experience. How do you analyze problems? How do you solve problems? How do you engage along a certain theme? These are all quite similar to painting. I started experimenting in animation in late 2005. I didn’t know why at the time; my intuition just told me that this field would produce new visual experiences, techniques and aesthetics.

戴卓群：一种内心的需要，开始往新媒体领域里面钻了。
Dai: Out of some kind of inner need, you began to move into the field of new media.

张小涛：当时我研究国际上新绘画的潮流，新的美学观念，动画为我打开了绘画之外一个新的通道。BBS论坛、BLOG、微博等对我们其实有很多隐性的改变，阅读量的改变带来知识结构的变化，信息化带来了未知的变化。微博是一个虚拟的社会，人人都成为了信息源和媒体，这里既是信息的发散地，也是谣言的交叉感染区，微博更是发现被遮蔽现实的通道，这里有关于现场的第一手资料。
Zhang: I was researching the new painting trends and new aesthetic concepts around the world, and animation provided me with a new channel outside of painting. Internet forums, blogs, microblogging and other new mediums have brought a lot of hidden changes. Changes to the amount of reading have altered the knowledge structure, and the rise of information is bringing as yet unknown changes. The microblog is a virtual society, where everyone becomes a source of information and media. This is a distribution point for information as well as an intersection and infection zone for rumors. The microblog is also a channel for discovering hidden realities. It is the first draft of the scene.

戴卓群：所以你觉得转变可能是一个水到渠成的事。
Dai: You see the transformation as an inevitability.

张小涛：我想通过实践再回到理论，比如做片子，过去不清楚，在刚刚操作的时候是一团乱麻，全是经验，现在能够把经验上升为一种知识结构、知识谱系，在实践中艺术家也开始成长，进入一个自我梳理，自我调整的时期。我试图和以前的语言、课题找到一种延续性。
Zhang: I just want to use practice to return to theory. For instance, when I first started making films, I wasn’t clear on a lot of things, and I made quite a mess. It’s all experience. Now I can elevate that experience to the level of a knowledge structure, a knowledge base. In practice, the artist begins to grow, to sift through and rearrange the self. I try to find continuity with my earlier language and themes.

戴卓群：真正的艺术家内在的线索一定是一致的。
Dai: The internal thread of the true artist is an unbroken one.

张小涛：我担心自己在工作中的不严谨，所以做了大量的思考和调查，我对藏学、佛教的研究，从资料、文献、图片的储备期很长。我必须要谈到的两个老师：北京大学文博学院的考古学家徐天进、陕西考古研究院的考古学家张建林，他们对我完成这个片子有重要的影响，尤其《萨迦》纪录片是以考古学家张建林的个人视点来展开的，动画电影中他是其中的一个虚拟角色，显得比较有意思。
Zhang: I worry about not being rigorous enough in my work, so I did a lot of thinking and investigation. I spent a lot of time researching Tibetology and Buddhism, collecting information, documents and pictures. Here I have to mention two teachers: Xu Tianjin, an archaeologist at the PKU School of Archaeology and Museology, and Zhang Jianlin, an archaeologist at the Shaanxi Archaeology Institute. They had a strong influence over my making of the films. In particular, the documentary unfolds around the personal viewpoints of Zhang Jianlin, while the animated film features him as a virtual character.

戴卓群：你对藏学的兴趣最初是从什么时候开始的？
Dai: When did your interest in Tibetology begin?

张小涛：2002年从藏传佛教美术开始的，对萨迦派的研究，包括对新媒体技术研究，它其实是一个系统，你需要对藏学的知识系统，对新媒体语言，实验动画的知识贮备，还有就是绘画得来的图像分析方法。其实你看它每一个图形的转化都是一个图像观念的转变，它通过隐晦的图像的暗喻，符号的暗示来表达艺术家的世界观，所以它是需要很多知识结构的整合与转移，我试图把跨学科、跨媒介的方法做一个具体的案例出来，学问在于“化”而不只是学习。王阳明讲：知行合一。知是行的开始，行是知的延伸。我们需要回到民间，回到传统，回到基层中去身体力行的实践。
Zhang: It began in 2002 with research into Tibetan Buddhist art. Research into the Sakya Sect, into new media techniques and other things came together to form a system. You need a knowledge system about Tibetology, a knowledge base about new media language and experimental animation, as well as the analytical methods from painting. You can see that the transformation of each image is an image-concept shift. It uses obscure image allusions and symbolic references to express the artist’s worldview, so it requires the organization and transference of a large knowledge structure. I have tried to create a specific case through cross-disciplinary, cross-medium methods. Knowledge takes place in action; it’s not just about learning. Wang Yangming said that knowledge and action are one. Knowledge is the beginning of action, and action is an extension of knowledge. We must return to folkways, to traditions, return to the foundation to engage in bodily practice.

戴卓群：那你现在应该有好几年时间对藏传佛教以及藏学的研究，当时是哪些方面触动你或吸引你的兴趣去走向这个方向呢？
Dai: So you have now researched Tibetan Buddhism and Tibetology for many years. What aspects of this originally attracted your interest, or spurred you to move in this direction?

张小涛：1993-2010年期间我去过川西藏区、甘南、西藏共七次，还是天生就有点迷恋这种气息。我的家乡重庆合川二佛寺是唐代的寺庙，有非常精美的石刻，气息高古，规模没有大足石刻那么大，但它的艺术成就非常高。可能与传统文化的熏陶对我的影响有关系，我本人对藏传佛教有一种敬意，2002年的时候，台湾的艺术家石晋华来东京画廊展览，他送过我一些藏传佛教的音乐，我听了很多年，有一种天然的神圣感和美感，有一种特别的感召力。当代艺术充满矛盾和悖论，既要颠覆、解构古典主义，但另一方面又要从古典主义当中获取营养，我不希望观者习惯性地把这个片子看作佛教宣传片或雪域高原的风光片。
Zhang: From 1993 to 2010, I made seven trips to the Tibetan area of western Sichuan, southern Gansu and Tibet, and I think I’m just naturally attracted to this atmosphere. The Hechuan Two Buddhas Temple in my hometown of Chongqing is a Tang dynasty temple that has beautiful stone carvings with an air of the ancient. The carvings are not as big as the ones at Dazu, but they are highly accomplished works of art. Perhaps it’s connected to the influence of traditional culture over me. I have a sense of reverence for Tibetan Buddhism. In 2002, Taiwanese artist Shi Jinhua held an exhibition at the Tokyo Gallery. He gave me some Tibetan Buddhist music that I’ve listened to for years. It has a natural feeling of sacredness and beauty. It is very enchanting. Contemporary art is full of contradiction and paradox. It wants to subvert and deconstruct classicalism, but it also must draw nourishment from classicalism at the same time. I do not wish for viewers to habitually view these films as promotions of Tibetan Buddhism or sightseeing videos of the Tibetan Plateau.

戴卓群：当代艺术原来颠覆和破坏古典的时候，用的是西方方法，西方语言，也就是说它借用了一种外来的工具进行颠覆，现在发现这种外来的工具越来越不任用，反而它原初要破坏的东西，跟它是真正兼容的。
Dai: When contemporary art subverted and destroyed classicalism, it applied western methods and western language. That is to say it borrowed external tools to engage in subversion. Now we’re discovering that these external tools are less and less powerful, and that they are truly compatible with what they were supposed to destroy.

张小涛：我小时候学书法、武术，对我后来影响很大，上大学学西方的艺术史、心理学、美学、哲学、社会学，历史等，当代艺术是另外的一套知识体系，很长时间我困惑传统文脉和当代艺术有什么关系呢？可是后来记忆里的东西开始激活，说不清楚到底是什么？但总有一种力量把我拉回到传统的河流中。我更强调知识考古、社会学、人类学的考察，怎么来看待藏传佛教在今天的命运？佛教与本土化、世俗化与全球化的关系？与地缘政治之间的关系？我是带着这种问题去进入《萨迦》这个项目，一开始就避免进入单维度的解读，我觉得这是做宗教片子最大的问题，我想带着疑问进去，没有标准答案，呈现的是一个思考和不断发现的过程。
Zhang: When I was young I studied calligraphy and martial arts, and this had a strong influence over me. In college I studied western art history, psychology, aesthetics, philosophy, sociology and history. Contemporary art is another knowledge system. I was perplexed for a long time about the relationship between traditional roots and contemporary art. But later, things in my memory were activated. I’m not sure what they are, but there has always been some kind of force pulling me back into the river of tradition. I place more emphasis on the investigation of the archaeology of knowledge, sociology and anthropology. How should we view the fate of Tibetan Buddhism today? How should we view the relationships between Buddhism, localization, secularization and globalization? How about the relationships of regional politics? I entered into the Sakya project with such questions on my mind. From the beginning, I avoided one-dimensional readings. I think that this is the biggest problem with religion films. I wanted to enter into it with doubts, without standard answers, presenting a process of thought and constant discovery.

戴卓群：你通过做《萨迦》有什么新收获？
Dai: What have you gained from Sakya?

张小涛：我谈谈动画方面的感受，这是一个新媒体技术和语言的问题，《迷雾》做得气势恢宏，后来慢慢体会到东方的东西，语言的收敛，内心的聆听，对题材和语言深度的消化。做《痕》那会儿我就已经开始变了，慢慢地走东方化、内心化、神秘主义的路子。做这个片子的时候我的团队更新了，没有以前用五十个人那么做了，做图、模型、剪辑、声音等分得非常细，工作仍然像以前一样，要求比以前更加苛刻，更加系统化。通过这个片子，对艺术生产的程序有一种豁然开朗的体会，我觉得有些东西是非要到一定的时候才能体会，年少气盛体会到的也许就是刚、强、狠，像绵延的，收放自如的东西出来是需要时间来实践的，以后慢慢的这个味道就出来了。技术和身体、心灵的融合也是很重要的，需要时间来发酵。
Zhang: I’ll talk about my perceptions making the animated film. It is an issue of the language and techniques of new media. Mist was grand and overbearing, but then I slowly got a better sense for oriental stuff, like reserved language, listening to the heart and the profound digestion of subject matter and language. When making Scar I had already begun to change, moving towards the East, towards the inner mind, towards mysticism. When I made this film, I made updates to my team. I no longer worked like before, with fifty people on the project. Now, the making of images, models, editing, sound and everything else were clearly delineated, while the work was the same as before. I had much stricter requirements, and pushed for more systematic work. Through the making of this film, I’ve had some enlightening insights about the production process of art. I think there are certain things that can only be realized at certain times. When you’re young, you may have realizations about strength, power and ruthlessness. Elegantly controlled things require a lot more time and practice, with that flavor only emerging slowly. The union of technique, body and soul is also very important, and that must ferment over time.

戴卓群：这应该是你本身的气质，《迷雾》我看到的也不是很刚很强，可能它表象是这样，但骨子里还是东方的内涵。
Dai: This is part of your own character. I didn’t see strength and power in Mist. Though it may have appeared as such on the surface, deep down it was still eastern.

张小涛：《迷雾》的音乐创作开始有点咄咄逼人，后来进行了不少的调整。一个团队需要全方位的融合，是一个整体。我喜欢往后藏，退一步，就像武学，真正的武功是藏的，是含而不发，是以守为攻的，是让的，手中有剑不是高手，手中心中都无剑才是高手，我很迷恋武学的境界和情怀，作品也是需要这种境界和格调的。如果我们过分追求技术会让一个人迷恋在一些小的细节里。
Zhang: The music in Mist was a bit overbearing at first, and we made quite a few adjustments. A team must completely fuse together as a unified whole. I like to keep things hidden, to step back a bit. It’s like martial arts. Real skill is hidden, kept inside. It’s about defense as attack, about passivity. The one with a sword in his hand is not a master. The true master carries no sword in his hand or his heart. I am obsessed with the psychological realm and sentiments of martial arts. The artwork also needs this kind of tone. If we pursue technique in excess, then people will get caught up in the details.

戴卓群：这样很容易迷恋在一些很表层的东西上。
Dai: This makes it easy to get caught up in the superficial level.

张小涛：这次我让团队把很多华丽的东西都去掉，要朴素、要含、要藏在里面，四两拨千斤，有很多技术手段可以用，但心灵的力量更重要。我这次动画里也加了些手绘的语言，我不愿意把动画做成绘画的延续，翻开的经书里面有绘画的痕迹，比如出土的器皿、佛像、经书、灰烬、风声、水声的音效都会运用在其中。
Zhang: This time I had the team remove a lot of the fancy stuff. It should be simple, reserved, concealed. Less is more. A lot of technical methods can be used, but the spiritual power is more important. In this animated film I also added a lot of painterly language. I don’t want animation to be a continuation of painting, but when the sutras are opened you can see the marks of painting, and it is also applied with the relics, the Buddha sculptures, the scriptures, the ashes and the sound effects such as the wind and water.

戴卓群：萨迦那个地方如今的情况是怎样的？
Dai: What is Sakya like now?

张小涛：记得我们在萨迦县半夜里起来登山到尼姑庵去听早课的真切感受，远处有犬吠、人声、风声交织在一起，皓月当空让我想起了：“月朗星稀，朱雀南飞”的句子来。清晨尼姑庵里浓浓的酥油茶味道和早课诵经的声音交织在一起，我们很难分辨这种视觉、嗅觉、听觉混合的复杂感受。老尼们沉吟低唱、苍茫枯寂，如海潮之音绵延不绝，梵音穿越了时间的暗河，那一刻犹如沧海行舟，暗夜登山。
Zhang: I remember we were in Sakya County and we got up in the middle of the night to climb the mountain and listen to the morning class at the nunnery. It was a distinct experience. In the distance you could hear the sounds of dogs, people and the wind mixing together. The bright moon in the sky reminded me of the verse, “the moon hangs among the sparse stars / the vermilion bird flies south.” In the nunnery at dawn, the thick smell of yak butter tea and the sounds of the sutra chanting wove together. I couldn’t quite distinguish this complex mix of sight, smell and sound. The older nuns chanted the low notes, a boundless sound that spread out like the waves in the sea. The sounds of the chants spread out across the river of time. It was like traversing the vast seas or climbing a mountain in the dark of night.

戴卓群：你说萨迦与佛教世俗化的进程有关，那么到今天，到了一个怎样的状态，可能许多人并不了解。
Dai: You said that Sakya was connected to the secularization of Buddhism. What is its situation today? Many people probably don’t understand.

张小涛：公元13世纪初期，以成吉思汗为首的蒙古部落兴起，到他的孙子忽必烈统一全中国，建立元朝中央政府后，封八思巴为“帝师”，赐玉印“命统天下释教”，即管理全国佛教事务，并协助中央政府管理西藏，统领西藏十三万户，八思巴遵忽必烈所嘱，在西藏清查户口，制定法律，于1268年在萨迦正式建立起与中国其它行省相同结构的地方政权，八思巴成为隶属于元朝中央政府的西藏地方行政长官，萨迦派势力达到鼎盛时期。14世纪后半叶，随着元朝的灭亡，萨迦派在西藏的地位被噶举派取代，但该派仍然维持下来。
Zhang: The Mongolians rose in the early 13th century under the command of Genghis Khan. Under his grandson, Kublai Khan, they united all of China and established the Yuan dynasty. Kublai bestowed the title of viceroy to Chogyal Pakpa, with the mission of “spreading Buddhism through the world.” He was in charge of the nation’s religious affairs, and coordinated the government’s rule over Tibet, controlling 130,000 families. Under orders from Kublai Khan, Chogyal Pakpa carried out a census in Tibet, set laws, and established a regional government at Sakya in 1268 that held the same authority as a provincial government. Pakpa became the administrator of Tibet under the Yuan dynasty government, and the Sakya Sect reached the peak of its influence. With the fall of the Yuan dynasty in the 14th century, the Sakya Sect’s position in Tibet was replaced by the Gelug Sect, but the Sakya Sect survived.

“政教合一”改变了西藏的命运，吐蕃时期的战斗力非常强悍，唐朝时吐蕃经常驻军渭水边，随时可以打进长安城，唐朝是打不过吐蕃才派文成公主去和亲。吐蕃在信佛教之前，人丁兴旺，民风彪悍，像蒙古人那么骁勇善战，后来全民信了佛教以后，人口减少，信徒所有的财产几乎都捐给寺庙，布达拉宫里有西藏历朝历代所有的财富。文革对萨迦寺的毁灭很厉害，萨迦北寺今天已经成了废墟，南寺还在，西藏今天的汉化也很厉害，这是传统文脉的崩溃和神圣世界的衰落。
The unity of politics and religion changed the fate of Tibet. During the time of the Tubo Kingdom it was a powerful military force. In the Tang dynasty they often garrisoned troops along the edge of the Wei River, and could attack Chang’an at any time. It was because the Tang could not defeat the Tubo that they married Princess Wencheng to marry their king. Before Tubo converted to Buddhism, its people were strong and fierce, producing great warriors just like the Mongolians. Then all of the people converted to Buddhism, the population decreased, and virtually all of the property of the believers was donated to the temples. Potala Palace contains all of the wealth from all of Tibet’s history. The Cultural Revolution brought a lot of destruction to the Sakya Monastery. The north temple is already in ruins. The south temple is still there. Tibet has also become strongly Han Chinese in culture. This is the collapse of traditional roots and the decline of the sacred world.

戴卓群：它们已经世俗化很慢了，中原的少林寺已经在全球开了四十多家分号，等于是全球化集团公司，整天做的是好莱坞，拉斯维加斯的生意，方丈坐着飞机全世界飞来飞去，谈完业务，然后去看世界杯。
Dai: It’s all secularized. The Shaolin Temple has over forty branches across the world now. They’re like a multinational corporation. They’re doing business all day with Hollywood and Las Vegas. The abbot flies all over the world doing negotiations and showing up at places like the World Cup.

张小涛：蒙古族信了藏传佛教以后，改变非常大，温和多了，整个被驯化了。清兵入关以后，他们也信藏传佛教，清政府有“兴黄教以安外蒙”的策略，以归化和统一不顺从的外族，所以我觉得这里面可以看到宗教与政治的某种关系，这种变化对我们今天的问题是很有帮助的。今天是一个全球化的自由市场的时代，故乡与乡愁都被摧毁了，传统只有在典籍里，在我们的回忆当中。我纪录片最后结束的时候，镜头一下子从萨迦寺摇到萨迦小学，孩子们正在进行足球比赛，这个片子只是关于信仰和现实生活的某个缩影，传统的宗教生活正在一步一步消失，物质化的浪潮不可阻挡。
Zhang: After the Mongolians converted to Buddhism, it changed them a great deal. They became much gentler, domesticated even. After the Manchus entered China, they also converted to Buddhism. They had a policy of promoting Yellow Hat Buddhism to pacify Mongolia and bring the border peoples into line. Here we can see a certain relationship between religion and politics. These changes can be helpful in the problems we face today. This is the era of the globalized free market. Hometown sentiment has been wiped out, traditions exist only in books and memories. At the end of my documentary, the camera pans from the Sakya Monastery to the Sakya Primary School, where the kids are playing a game of soccer. This film is just a kind of microcosm of faith and reality. Tradition and religion are increasingly disappearing. The waves of materialism are unstoppable.

戴卓群：我对西藏宗教的世俗化状况真不是很了解，包括西藏社会蜕变的速度和程度。
Dai: I really don’t know much about the state of secularization in Tibetan religion, including the speed and extent of Tibetan society’s transformation.

张小涛：非常快的，这很可悲，人类精神世界，信仰的圣地已经变得非常世俗化，西藏可能是人类最后有信仰的地区。悲哀啊！微博上讨论地沟油说到，其实这个时代就是一个相互投毒的时代，我们只要自己不投毒就很不错了。西藏从宗教、地缘政治、商业消费、意识形态、物质化浪潮来看，变化非常大。90年代，我们去时还没那么严重，今天的寺庙变化也非常大，现在好多都意识形态化，商业控制寺庙，门票很贵。完全只认钱，真是“有钱能使磨推鬼”的时代，我看到了文脉的余晖与超越世界的衰落。
Zhang: It is very fast, and tragic. Mankind’s spiritual world and the sacred land of faith have become very secular. Tibet may be the last outpost of human faith. It is a real tragedy! We were discussing tainted cooking oil on the microblog, and it came up that this era is one of mutual poisoning. Just not poisoning other people makes us good people. In terms of religion, regional politics, commercial consumption, ideology and materialism, Tibet has changed a lot. When we went in the 1990s, it wasn’t so bad. The temples have changed a lot now. A lot of them have become very ideological, and are controlled by commerce, with really high ticket prices. They only care about money. It has really become an era where you can only get your demons expelled if you have money. I have seen the final sparks of tradition and the decline of the transcendent world.

戴卓群：开发掉以后就全都没有了。
Dai: Once it’s developed, it’s gone.

张小涛：我去浙江天台山国清寺，门票才5块钱，这里是天台宗的祖庭，隋代的大寺庙，这里有柳公权、欧阳询、于右任、蒋中正，有康有为、等的书法和匾额。历史气息、文化底蕴深厚，它们就抵抗商业化，全面的市场和商业化是全球化带来的一个重要的改变，中国现在可能是全世界最物质化的国家。
Zhang: I went to Guoqing Temple on Tiantai Mountain, Zhejiang Province. The entry ticket was only 5 yuan. This is the ancestral hall of Tiantai Zong, a massive temple from the Sui dynasty. There are inscriptions from Liu Gongquan, Ouyang Xun, Yu Youren, Chiang Kai-shek, Kang Youwei and many other notable Chinese figures. It has a strong historic and cultural atmosphere. They resist against commercialization. Full market-orientation and commercialization is a big change that has been brought on by globalization. China just might be the most materialistic country in the world.

戴卓群：我最近刚从欧洲回来，在罗马、佛罗伦萨、米兰、苏黎世、巴黎都要去最著名的教堂瞻仰，我觉得欧洲的宗教也在面对世俗化的问题，并且走过的路远比我们更长久，但是他们的神圣世界却庄严地保留下来了，回想国内却只剩利欲烟熏的寺庙与利欲烟熏的和尚，阿米托佛，铜臭无边。
Dai: I just came back from Europe. I went to see all of the important churches of Rome, Florence, Milan, Zurich and Paris. I think that European religion is also facing the problem of secularization, and they have gone much further down the path, but their sacred world has been carefully preserved. When I think back about all the money-tainted temples and monks in China, Amitabha! The stench of money is everywhere.

张小涛：今年五月我们去意大利考察有一个感受就是，意大利的宗教和世俗的关系，他们教堂在市中心，今天的宗教生活还蕴含在他们日常生活里面，这是很重要一点，他们的道德底线和人的良知还是来自宗教的约束，我想把《萨迦》做成一个关于宗教生活的某种缩影，是我们解读神圣宗教世界在今天的现实遭遇，也是我们重新观看传统的通道。我去每一地方一定要去寺庙看看，尤其欧洲国家的教堂、博物馆、公墓是一个国家的“魂”。
Zhang: An impression I had on a trip to Italy this May was about the relationship between religion and the secular world in Italy. Their churches are at the city centers, and the religious life is still part of their everyday lives. This is important. Their morality and conscience is still influenced by their religion. I wanted to make Sakya a microcosm of religious life, one that could help us decode the predicament of the sacred religious world in today’s reality, and a path for looking at religion anew. Wherever I go I want to see the temples. The churches, museums and cemeteries in Europe are the “souls” of a nation.

戴卓群：欧洲也在走向现代化，走向工业化，走向商业社会，也有破坏它本身的宗教文明和信仰，但是在亚洲，尤其是在中国，所有这些（宗教和信仰）东西都彻底遗失了。
Dai: Europe is also moving towards modernization, industrialization and commercial society. They are also destroying their religious civilization and faith, but in Asia, especially in China, these things have been completely wiped out.

张小涛：自五四以来，我们一直在解构、颠覆、摧毁传统，文革是消灭了一部分，今天的物质主义可以说是全面的摧毁历史文脉。我们其实什么都没有建立起来，抗战时战火纷飞，西南联大的学术研究成果，今天我们的大学都难以比肩的。重要的不是物质，而是信仰的力量和精神的传承和演变。
Zhang: Ever since the May 4th Movement, we have been constantly deconstructing, overturning and destroying traditions. Part of it was destroyed during the Cultural Revolution. Today’s materialism could be said to be completely destroying our cultural roots. We haven’t actually built anything. As the fires of war burned during the Second World War, the Southwestern United University was producing academic results that our universities today can’t hold a candle to. It’s not the material that matters; it is the power of faith and the carriage and evolution of the spirit.

戴卓群：文革是一种直接的、硬性的破坏，其实质还是一个被政治形态极端化了的焚书坑儒的路子，现在是干脆消费掉，消费掉以后就没有意义了，所有的意义和价值就消解掉了。
Dai: The destruction of the Cultural Revolution was direct and solid. It was in essence an ideologically extreme path of burning books and fighting ancient traditions. Now things are just consumed, and once they’re consumed, they become meaningless. All of the meaning and value is dissipated.

张小涛：我用水墨给儿子画《望庐山瀑布》、画李白、画银河落九天、画《登高望远》的亭台楼阁和山水，拿南宋四家的画册给他看，他很奇怪，我们为什么写一首诗？再画一张画？要回答这个看似简单的问题，其实是一个完整的美学问题，很难解释。我们只能在书里和记忆里寻找传统，小孩子的传统教育挺重要的，就是让他有根，在他内心里有可以很坚定的东西。
Zhang: I used ink to paint famous Chinese paintings with poetic inscriptions for my son. He was confused. Why would I write a poem? Why would I paint another painting? This seemingly simple question is actually a very complete question of aesthetics, and is quite difficult to explain. We can only seek out traditions within books and memories. Traditional education for children is very important. We need to give them roots, something that will persist.

戴卓群：这也是一种形式，你在教育小孩的时候，没有给他看毕加索的画册而是在传输中国古典文明的东西，虽然是浅显的、点点滴滴的。
Dai: This is also a form. When you educate your child, and you show him things from classical Chinese civilization instead of the paintings of Picasso, though it is only the surface, it can add up.

张小涛：毕加索的画他以后会喜欢的，他老问我为什么古人旁边老是有松树啊？为什么每一个人都有古琴啊？每一个都有书童啊？为什么山上有亭子啊？他充满了好奇，我常常和他用毛笔去涂鸦、一起诵读《三字经》、《弟子规》、《论语》等 ，传统教育在今天是一种奢侈。
Zhang: He will enjoy Picasso’s paintings later. He always asks me why the ancients always have pine trees next to them, or why they’re always carrying zithers, why there are children carrying books for them, or why there are pavilions at the tops of the mountains. He is full of curiosity. I often use a brush to make scribbles for him, and we’ll recite classic recitation texts together, like the Three Character Classic, Rules for Students or the Analects.

戴卓群：像萨迦小学的课程里有宗教的内容吗？
Dai: Is there any religious content in the curriculum at the Sakya Primary School?

张小涛：没有，他们有藏语课，其他课程和内地小学差不多，我们采访了一个唐卡画师，他有五六个弟子，他们坚持用传统的工艺来画唐卡。当地很多人都去外面做生意，打工，只要是读了书的孩子就不再去寺庙当喇嘛，这是很现实的变化。
Zhang: No. They have Tibetan language courses, and the rest of the curriculum is about the same as schools anywhere else. We interviewed a Thangka painter. He has five or six apprentices, and they persist in using traditional techniques to paint Thangkas. A lot of the locals go out to do business and find work. None of the kids who get schooling go to the temple anymore to become lamas. This is a very cynical change.

戴卓群：新式教育越普及，这种能力消失得就越快。
Dai: The more that new education spreads, the more this power will be diminished.

张小涛：是，这是一个矛盾的产物，人类应该保持信仰，也应该有世俗化的进程，也应该有享受现代文明的权利，这个度不好把握。
Zhang: Yes. This is a product of contradiction. Mankind should maintain faith, but should also have a progression of secularity and enjoy the rights of modern civilization. It is hard to control the balance.

戴卓群：《萨迦》展览还涉及到对公益的构想，你是怎么想的？
Dai: The Sakya exhibition also contains some thoughts about the public good. What is your thinking on that?

张小涛：今天的艺术应该介入社会，关怀社会，很多人一来就指责这是伪社会学家，当道德审判者，其实没有那么简单，我觉得真正的艺术是润物无声，它是一种关怀，工作和社会的关系相互融合的，像我们做这个画册，做得好玩一些，低成本，只要有学生来买，把这些收入反馈给贫困小学，像西藏的萨迦小学。这样就有一种参与感，这个对艺术的影响，对社会的改变，会带来一种反思，我们不要大张旗鼓地去宣传，这种工作是每个人都应该做的。我已经有了许多画册，多一本少一本都无所谓，可不可以做一些更有意思的事？
Zhang: Today’s art should be involved in society, should care for society. A lot of people accuse us of being pseudo-sociologists and presuming to be judges of morality, but it’s not that simple. I think that real art should be tender and nourishing, having concern that brings together work and social relations. For instance, with this catalogue, we want to make it fun and cheap, and as long as students buy it, we will donate the proceeds to poor schools like the Sakya Primary School in Tibet. In this way, there is a sense of participation. The influence it has on art and the changes it makes to society will elicit rethinking. We shouldn’t make a big deal promoting our work; it’s just something that everyone should do. I have a lot of catalogues, and I don’t care about one more or one less. Can’t we do something more interesting?

戴卓群：从你的《迷雾》到《萨迦》看似完全不同，但其实，甚至跟我们做的艺术区的维权，它的内在逻辑，内在线索是连贯的，实际上是一个共同命题。
Dai: Sakya seems completely different from Mist, but your work, and even your participation in the rights-defense actions in the art zones, all of these things share an internal thread, a shared theme.

张小涛：“暖冬”当时的艰难抗争，这种合理合法的维权和诉求，怎么去找一个艺术的语言去表达，而不是一种粗暴的简单的对抗，我觉得这样也是一种润物无声。公民社会需要理性的建设，“暖冬”让我们这代人找到了重返公共经验的通道。
Zhang: The “Warm Winter” action was very tough. How do we find artistic language to express this pursuit of legitimate rights, rather than simple, coarse resistance? This is what I mean when I say tender and nourishing. Civil society needs to be built up in a rational way. “Warm Winter” provided our generation with a path for returning to the public experience.

戴卓群：它等于是把我们个人面对社会变迁的声音具体化了，《萨迦》做完以后还有具体计划吗？
Dai: It amounted to concretizing the voices of individuals facing social change. After Sakya is complete, do you have any specific plans?

张小涛：我在未来两年可能会拍一部关于美术生考大学的片子，献给我们屡败屡战的青春期，学生被考疯了，没考上，这种疯狂，考试成为我们的个人宗教，疯狂的追求理想，最后带来毁灭。我想拍成一个艺术家电影，我先去构思这个东西，我的方法是先设计蓝图，做好以后按照蓝图去做，方向不能乱，未来两年我想把电影和新媒体融合。人生是轮回的，去年四川美院校庆期间阳光灿烂，我觉得是1992年刚考上大学记忆的重现
Zhang: Over the next two years I may be making a film about art students testing into college, a tribute to our difficult youth. Students go crazy taking these tests, and don’t pass. This fervor has become a kind of individual religion, the crazed pursuit of ideals that leads to destruction. I want to make it a film about artists. I have to work out the concept. My method is to start with a blueprint and follow that to the letter, so I don’t get off course. Over the next two years I want to make a fusion between film and new media. Life is cyclical. Last year, the anniversary celebration for the Sichuan Academy of Fine Art was very lively and festive. It felt like my memories from entering the school in 1992 had come back to life.

戴卓群：第二次上大学的感觉，当年义无反顾地离开，但是没想到轮回一圈，如今又回去。
Dai: It’s like going back to college again. We left without looking back, but never imagined that we would end up going full circle.

张小涛：人生是千回百转的，我现在看当时的疯狂，崩溃，对今天影响力是很大的。青春期在一个工业的场域中展开的记忆，会刻骨铭心的！后来我经历了一个转换，从一个他者的角度去看，它已经变化了，经历了二十年的变迁，我们对全球化与本土化、地缘政治等等问题的思考，随着时间和空间的变化，一切都清晰起来了。
Zhang: Life is a series of endless cycles. When I look back at my fervor and distress back then, it still has a powerful influence today. My youthful memories unfolded in an industrial setting. Oh, the memories! Later I experienced a transference, looking at things from the perspective of others. It has changed. After twenty years of changes, our ideas about globalization, localization, regional politics and the like have all become clear through changes in time and space.

戴卓群：所以这是你个人的经验，我们刚才说，对传统的文明，不管是汉地的文明还是藏地的文明，它都有它的生命力，今天发生变迁，被消解，被抛弃，被干预，但它的生命是轮回的，只是我们处在一个不同的周期而已，
Dai: So this is an individual experience of yours. I was just saying that traditional civilization, whether it is Han Chinese or Tibetan, all has vitality. It is changing now, dissipating, being discarded and interfered with, but its life is cyclical. We just live in a different phase of it.

张小涛：我相信有这种转化，肉身可朽，精神不灭。
Zhang: I believe in this transference. The body is mortal but the spirit is not.

戴卓群：就像传统的回归也是一样，我们所有的这一代人，我们在拼命的往外冲，而我们对外界的想象是无限美化和放大的结果。你现在教育你的孩子的时候，你已经给他最传统的东西，因为你已经开始在回归，你希望给他的是这样的文化而不是那样的文化，你已经做出了价值判断，认为这样的文化是更好的文化。
Dai: It’s just like the return to traditions. Everyone in our generation has been pushing outwards, and in our minds, the outside world was infinitely beautified and magnified. Now, when you’re educating your child, you’re giving him the most traditional stuff, because you have already begun your return. You want to give him this kind of culture rather than that kind of culture. You’ve made a values judgment, and have decided that this kind of culture is better than that kind of culture.

张小涛：血浓于水啊，我觉得它是更适合我们的空气，我们的土壤中生长的，因为，我常想起我的童年，学武术、练书法、野蛮生长、对一个东西的虔诚，投入，疯狂，这些对我今天来说非常重要的东西，它不是工具，而是内在的发动机，是一个人的根本和核心。
Zhang: Blood runs thicker than water. I think it is more suited to our air; after all, it did grow in our soil. I often think of my youth, studying martial arts, practicing calligraphy, running wild, my devotion, effort and fervor towards things, these have become very important in my life today. They are not tools, but an engine within me, the root and core of an individual.

戴卓群：我最近接触了很多事也是这样，我针对吕澎“溪山清远”的展览写了一个文章，标题叫《溪山已远，清风徐来》，因为溪山真的已经远去了，现在的“溪山清远”只是一种古典幻想。同时，溪山虽然已经离我们很远，但清风是可以从遥远的山谷中吹过来的，即便充盈在高楼大厦之间，但是我们肯定会重新找到那种东西，尽管不是原初的那个样子。
Dai: A lot of things I’ve come across recently are like this. I wrote an essay about Lu Peng’s “Xishan is Distant yet Clear,” entitled Xishan is Distant, the Breeze Blows Soothingly. Xishan really is distant now. That ideal about Xishan is just an ancient fantasy. At the same time, while Xishan may be distant, a soothing breeze still blows from the distant mountains. We may be amidst the towering skyscrapers, but we can still find that stuff again, even though it isn’t quite what it used to be.

张小涛：这也是万物有灵，轮回转换的东西，我们家园丁每天种菜、施肥、浇水，他说：任何东西都是不死的，都是轮回的。他说得很透彻。
Zhang: This is about all things having spirits and everything changing in cycles. My family would grow vegetables, watering and feeding them every day. He said, nothing ever dies; it is all a cycle. He cut right to the root of it.

戴卓群：这就叫民间智慧。
Dai: That’s what is called folk wisdom.

张小涛：万事万物轮回不灭，比如在艺术维权过程中，我们俩常常感觉有一种默契，这个默契是什么呢？是有一个共同的传统的价值观。
Zhang: All things are cyclical, never dying. For instance, in the process of the artist’s rights defense action, we always felt this cohesion. What was the source of that cohesion? It is shared traditional values.

戴卓群：是价值取向的共识。
Dai: A values consensus.

张小涛：你可以去争取基本的权利，但你不要去侵犯他人，你可以搞极端，但你不要让别人去当炮灰，我们已经有这种底线，不能因为个人要成为某种道德的卫士而让更多的人跟着你去“革命”，这个不行。你承担你的责任，我承担我的责任，这是某种传统的情怀，不该把群众人作为利用的工具。“暖冬”我们可以看到人性中很多本质的东西，后来发生的事让人很感慨。我把《萨迦》整合起来看，它是谈宗教的世俗化，谈传统的某种缩影，谈我们今天怎么观看传统？以及对我们的影响，虽然我是用动画做的，上次我在中奥新媒体论坛的一个演讲上，我虽然谈的新媒体，但核心是跨越考古学、藏学、和新媒体的边界，关心新技术、心灵、传统的关系，是一种交叉和超越。我想这就是我们做新媒体的意义，不然你就会成为一种符号，一种媒介的奴隶，没有更深层的脉络和生命力，我希望历史、现实、社会学和语言本体的东西是融合在一起的，不是二元对立，而是一个多重世界的关系。
Zhang: You can struggle for basic rights, but you mustn’t violate the rights of others. You can be extreme, but you can’t treat others like cannon fodder. We all had this basic bottom line. It is not acceptable to pull others into some “revolution” so that you can become some defender of morality. You take your responsibility, I take my responsibility. It is a kind of traditional sentiment. The masses cannot be used as tools. During “Warm Winter,” we saw a lot of the essence of human nature, and people were moved by the things that happen. Sakya is essentially about the secularization of religion. It presents a microcosm of tradition, discussing how we view tradition today, and how it influences us. When I spoke at the China-Australia New Media Conference, I said that though I’m talking about new media, the project crosses the boundaries of archaeology, Tibetology and new media, and focuses on the relationships between new technology, the soul and tradition. It is both intersection and transcendence. That is the significance of doing new media. Otherwise it just becomes a symbol, and you’re just a slave to a medium, lacking deeper roots and vitality. I hope for a fusion between history, reality, sociology and language. It is not a standoff but a multiple world.